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look down…
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Look Down…. Back Up….
Where are you? You are on Memebase looking at Demotivationals that your memes could be like.
What’s in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It’s the penis you lost contemplating about the picture above.
Look again. Your penis is now diamonds.
Anything is possible when you troll people on Memebase.
I own a horse.
You sir/madam have won at internetz for today. 50 points to Gryffindor
Heard you like Trolling, so i pu a troll in another troll so yo can troll and derping.
if my penis is diamonds…
does that mean i have herpes?
I would merry her T_T
…you mean him
Nope. They meant her. She identifies as a woman.
This^
if it technically it’s a man, i don’t real give a s***
He has a penis. It’s a him.
First, do not refer to other people as “it”. It’s incredibly offensive.
Second, if you saw her walking down the street, you would never know that she was not born female. It is how she wishes the world to see her. It is how she sees herself.
Since there’s nothing wrong with being transgender, we should afford her the respect she deserves, and respect her gender identity.
As for the gender-by-genitals thing, I suggest you read up about intersex conditions. It’s pretty enlightening.
Thank you, Ben. You just made my week.
And you just made my night
A tad disturbing……
Fair cop.
FAPPING
^this
Nope, it’s gender by chomosomes and sex hormones present at birth.
Gender is not genetic. The existence of people women who are “genetically male” (I’ve mentioned elsewhere that this means of categorisation is not binary) are evidence of that.
^I’d still bang her.
gender is not sex .
nothing wrong with trans gendered individuals but shut the feck up and get the feck of memebase you fecking tool.
I must have misunderstood all of the transphobes on here. I didn’t realise they were actually being incredibly respectful, and recognising that being transgender is perfectly acceptable.
Sorry. My mistake.
Ben, thank you so much for proving that people like me can find acceptance. It’s been very hard since I “came out” to my family, but you’ve given me faith that I will be embraced for who I am.
-gives you a flower-
Ben, thank you so much for proving that people like me can find acceptance. It’s been very hard since I “came out” to my family, but you’ve given me faith that I will be embraced for who I am.
-gives you a rose- you are a good person ^_^
This is Ben, using her recently chosen name.
Yes, we can find acceptance. I recently came out to my family and friends. I was overwhelmed with the positivity of the reactions. My little sister is struggling with the loss of her big brother, but that’s the worst of it. She feels guilty for not handling it better, actually.
When I chose a new name for myself my brother posted a status update saying how proud he was of me for living my life as I want in spite of society’s expectations. My mother said it was better than what they would have called me.
I’m sorry that your coming out wasn’t better. I know that my experience is almost uniquely positive, but my point is, such positivity does exist in the world. I’ve found entire communities of it. Even friends I thought would never accept it reacted wonderfully.
Thank you for the rose. My thoughts are with you. Good luck, and fondest wishes.
Obvious troll is obvious.
some people are just not openminded. You do make a fair point about respecting people doing what they want issue, But to be honest… I just want to see the face of some dude she (or he? dunno) takes home…
I am a bad person, I know
Sorry, but all I’ve seen of that has been POV. They seemed pretty keen, though ^_^
If it has a Y chromosome, its a man.
Incorrect. See the rest of the thread concerning intersex and the distinction between sex and gender.
TL;DR
You took the time to dig up a thread from two months ago just to post that?
Well said.
What Chromsones does s/he have? If its xx then she’s feamle, end of disscussion
DiscussionWay tip open an old thread back up by claiming “end of discussion”on a point which has been a major talking point of the discussion thuds far, and one against which many arguments have been brought. You, sir, are a genius.
No where near the same thing; seems you chose a name to use on here correctly.
The label “astronaut” means something objective in the real world. It means you are both qualified and selected to take part in expeditions into space. Thus, it is not an identity you can merely choose and expect to have respected.
Gender is a social construct. It is distinct from sex (which is, itself, neither binary nor static). It is not an essentialist concept. What makes a man a man and a woman a woman is completely arbitrary, and I generally shy away from referring to the two as opposites.
Until earlier this century, pink was considered a masculine colour, and blue a feminine one. This is still the case in Japan. It’s entirely culturally dependent.
Gender is merely a lens through which we perceive ourselves and others. It’s an incredibly fundamental lens. No one really knows how people come to identify as something other than their assigned gender, but it happens.
Just about every medical authority in the world you’d want to listen to recognises gender dysphoria (I use the term loosely here) as a legitimate condition, and gender reassignment as the appropriate course of action.
By refusing to recognise someone’s chosen gender (that is, the gender we choose to express. No one chooses to be trans*, but they do choose to recognise it and act upon it) you make their lives more difficult. You make their transition more difficult, and you serve to feed the cultural stigma they already feel.
Every trans* person struggled with the disconnect between their gender identity and their assigned gender. Aside from a simple matter of respect for you fellow human beings, this is why pronouns are such a big deal.
TL:DR
Saying TL:DR doesn’t make you look any more intelligent nor does it invalidate Ben’s argument.
In fact, TL:DR makes anyone who says it seem either illiterate or lazy. Either way, it doesn’t make Ben look bad or you look good. It is the fail of internet responses.
TL:DR
Or it means that they are here for the lulz and care little for your debates on society’s views of gender role or sexual identity.
People like you give me hope for some of humanity Ben. I’ve never been one to care much of what people thought of me when they saw me, but when it comes to that part of my life, I find myself trying to keep it hidden from even some of my closest friends because of how I’ve seen other transgenders treated. If more people thought like this then I could actually be myself more often.
I’m pretty lucky. There are a lot of people around me who are fine with my trans status.
I hope you find the community you need. There’s nothing better than telling someone and having them smile and hug you in congratulations.
Until you find it in real life, *hugs*. I hope that you find what you need, and that this experience can be as wonderful for you as it should be.
I just want to add this, because every that has been said is great, that the only thing that makes me hesitant to date trans girls, is that someday I want to be a father, If the procedure does someday come to cross that line I would be more than okay with it, As gender identity is about who you feel like you are.
I think that’s perfectly fair, although in the interests of not limiting yourself from some potentially awesome partners, have you considered other options? Adoption, surrogacy, etc?
These may not be for you. You may want the experience of having a child who is genetically related to both you and your partner. If so, then I see no problem with that.
I’m pretty sure we’re a long way from trans women being able to bear children, unfortunately.
I’ve been informed that a trans woman has actually managed to bear a child. I think it developed in a section of the intestines. I’ll have to look into it further, but perhaps it’s closer to being reality than I thought.
it was a chick-to-dude, still had lady parts, and used female hormones while prego, so just ugly girl basically.
I can “feel” like a dolphin but I will still be human, (south park). If scientists can change your chromosomes from XY to XX or XX to XY than your still your born gender and no surgery or pills will change that. you will just be a hormonally imbalanced physically mutilated person, but still your born gender.
Actually, it was a cisgendered man. Entirely different story (and not an ugly girl. A man).
Gender is not some essentialist concept people are born into and can never deviate from. It’s a social construct, and it is independent of sex (which, as I’ve covered, for those too lazy to read the comments, is not governed by simply XX/XY combinations).
Gender is fluid. It varies from person to person. One woman’s femininity may look very different to that of the next.
People like you attempt to say that gender is a scientific reality, but the fact is it’s not. One need only look to other societies right now to see that’s not the case. One need only look back at societies a few hundred years ago to see that’s not the case.
Recognise this simple fact, and trans people, rather than being deviants or freaks, serve as evidence that the relationship between gender and sex is beautifully complex and varied.
I’ll preface this by saying: I have no feelings one way or another about transgenders. I espouse a strict code of “not my business” and I don’t look down on those different from me.
The one thing I hate the most about 90% of pro-trans gender, pro-gay, pro-lesbian idealists is that they by and large refuse to take some of their own medicine. Pro-activist often go out of their way to lambast their opponents with derision, loathing, and righteous anger over that person not accepting their viewpoint about whatever social topic that has arisen. They demand that everyone take heed of THEIR opinions on the matter while telling everyone else that the opinions they hold are wrong, bigoted and narrow minded. To distill it to a fine point, the Pro-activists demand they everyone believe the way they do. And that is a very bigoted way of doing things. You say they are wrong for believing the way they do, but you want them to believe the way you do, because they are wrong from your point of view. The pro-activist in that respect are every bit as bigoted as the people they lambast. They harass those people as much as anti-activists harass whoever they are anti to.
People have a right to be weirded out by whatever weirds them out. I agree that a lot of things that people are weirded out by are the result of culture/religious/nurturing/personal ethics, but just because THEIR view of the world turned out different from yours doesn’t make it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished verbally or otherwise, just as the subject of whatever social issue shouldn’t be abused.
If everyone would take an agree to disagree stance, the world would be a better place.
So by that same reasoning; it is correct for people to ridicule and verbally abuse black people. The Supreme Court of the United States has found before that hate speech is free speech; but when it comes to threats of violence, as has been hinted at a few times here, it is not protected speech. If you want to get on a moral high horse, beside your not mired in the filth that you are protesting.
He never defended threats, only opinions, you are twisting his meanings like the people he had talked about.
people are free to irrational fear/hate or whatever, as long as they don’t commit a crime based off of it.
You don’t have to threaten someone to be an arsehole.
Yes, people have a right to be weirded out, although I would like to tackle the issues which result in such reactions.
I can answer your entire argument with a single sentence: yes, I am intolerant of intolerance.
To expand on that, not all opinions are equal. Some opinions can be wrong. For example, transphobic, homophobic, racist, sexist, and many other discriminatory opinions are wrong, and there are plenty of arguments to show why this is so.
I will not respect an opinion which robs anyone else of respect without just cause. The transphobic opinions stated here fall into that category.
But at which point should a transgender let a perspective partner know that he or she is indeed a transgender? As you said that the person above sees them self as a woman so she is a woman. But to someone else who may be attracted to her may not feel the same way when they realize that they have been fooled. Artificial hormones, Breast augmentation, and reconstructive surgery doesn’t truly make someone a woman any more than bleaching ones skin makes them white.
No one is saying that this information needs to be withheld from everyone, just that society makes it so a transgendered person feels they need to hide it. If a transgendered person is wanting to get to know someone for a relationship, they should in fact tell that person before they express any interest in such a thing imo.
Ben- here’s the issue people have with you and your closemindedness… You say that opinions can be wrong when, in fact, they can’t be (well generally, we’re not saying the sky is red). If my opinion is that transgendered are disgusting horrid creatures who ridiculously mutilate themselves, well, that’s my opinion. You are being as bad as the ones you badmouth by forcing your opinion on others.
Your ridiculous quote of “I hope you die in a fire” shows your bias.
You are basically telling someone that if they don’t agree with you, they deserve no respect and should die, at the same time defending your right to have a differing opinion. I think you should die, and it’s because you’re a closeminded twit, not because you want to cut your penis off.
If you refuse to show someone the respect due to them for living their lives according to their identity, based on a limited understanding on the role of genetics in gender identity and even in sexual differentiation, then you are part of a massive problem. You are part of a culture which makes people feel okay with stabbing someone, humiliate people in custody, and pass laws which endanger peoples’ safety, privacy and freedom for daring to differ from your limited, blatantly incorrect views. I afford such people no respect, and suggest that the world would be a better place without them.
First off, people just don’t deserve respect because they exist. I don’t have to respect everyone on earth. Also, I don’t see how not having respect for someone means that I feel it is ok to stab someone. You speak of freedom, and then chastise me for expressing my opinion. YOU are what is wrong with this country. Not because of your choices in life, but because you feel it is ok to silence people who disagree with you. You further show your hypocracy by insisting that people should be allowed to live life as they see fit, then go and say that the world would be a better place without me. My response, SIR, is that the world would be better without a close minded person like you. I may disagree with ‘transgendered’ people, but I could care less how they live, and if they live. You are suggesting that the world would be a better place if I were to die. Are you even listening to yourself?
Wow, complaining at Austrailians about the US huh? I will take three statements and one bonus to counter your whole line of thinking. 1. People who see the need to belittle others habitually based on any difference have been time and again found to be, scientifically, idiots. See the latest study under the title of ‘Bright Minds and Dark Attitudes’ published January 5, 2012. 2. Every religion in the world that has been around for more than the last hundred years says that to respect other is to respect oneself. Belive me, I have studied this. 3. It has been shown time and again that hateful thoughts lead to hateful actions as the person dehumanizes the target of thier hate. The best example of this was the recent Abu Ghraib prison. The soldiers there reinforced the idea that the prisoners were not human, and objects of loathing only. This lead to the opening in the moral views that would allow for such random torture to take place.
Now for the bonus. When the Internet was only a few years in existance I came across a statement that is still true, and being displayed here. “Welcome to the Internet: where people beat the grease spot that was once a dead horse.”
What does Austrailia and the US have to do with anything?
When have I belittled anyone? Just because I have no respect for someone doesn’t mean I feel they should have no rights. My issue with “Belle” is that he calls other people’s opinions wrong, and uses the argument that “people have the right to live as they please” to tell me that I don’t have the right to my own opinion, and that I should die.
Citing a study completed a month ago is just naieve. How many times have studies found themselves to be wrong years after they prove a point?
Don’t bring religion into this, I am not religious, and most religions speak out against homosexuality.
Hateful thoughts do NOT generally lead to hateful actions. I am in Law Enforcement, and can’t stand the people I deal with and arrest. I have never mistreated a single one. You are using one instance to prove a point which has countless instances in which no ‘torture’ took place.
Only Islam has actual rules aginst sameness pairings, and sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender identity; quit while you are ahead on that one, there is a reason there is a Reverend in front of my name legally.
Bel identifies as a female and by federal guidelines should be refered to as such, if you really were such a good law officer. She also lives in Australia. I am presuming that you live in the US as anyone else that I have delt with in the world that has that good a grasp on English and that arrogant is either American or French Canadian.
If you had read the study I pointed you to you would have found it was a more precise version of the studies done on nearly the same hypothesis in 1948, 1950, 1954, 1981, 1996,1999, 2010, and 2011. As you failed to even glance over the ten page paper I would presume you fall with in the scope of those studies.
As you are not in psychology you would not know of the studies that have been done regarding dehumanization. I found an easy version for you to read with references to the source material; but that would likely be over your head. Most of the studies done do say that the dehumanization can lead to hate crimes, and have many times. Try reading this one. Beyondintractability.org/node/2463
Internet iz serious bizness
you mean it ^^
You’d better believe I will return to this thread after two months to correct someone for the umpteenth time.
She’s a woman. Get over it.
You DO realise she’s fugly right ?
sorry couldn’t read comment. too busy scrubbing eyes with bleach.
You do realise you are probably gay right?
He’s probably gay because he doesn’t like fugly shemales?
In what world is she ugly?
can’t tell if trolling or very…very gay
Can’t really say s/he is ugly no matter gender…
She
It
Because some human beings don’t deserve respect, amirite?
correct.
I should rephrase:
Because some human beings don’t deserve respect for something about themselves which they cannot, and should not, change, amirite?
*Cannot.
science cant change the genetics that gender is made from
I once again implore you to READ THE COMMENTS. Gender and sex are not the same. Neither is simply determined by genetics, and believing that they are demonstrates that you’ve never bothered to read about the issue since high school science.
What we can do is radically alter our bodies, with hormones, hair treatments, and surgeries, to give every appearance of a gender other than that which we were assigned at birth (not born into).
C-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-COMBO BREAKER!!!!
^and it’s about damn time!
That
*he
*Ignorant Transphobic Douche
(That correction was intended for your name)
I like you a lot, ben
Blasphemy!
i don’t get it, is there a cell phone in her pants?
Extra-thick sanitary pad.
[/deception]
Maybe cigarettes or the room keys…
I recall this from somewhere…..
That’s where she keeps her chewing tobacco..
(Go to 3:10)
If you can’t have a coke, have a pepsi
That’s like replacing beer with piss.
You NEVER drink Pepsi instead of Coke. not even if the only other option was diarrhea.
Or like replacing beer with Fosters
Replacing bleach with Fosters would still be a bad thing…
Replacing beer with piss…?
You mean there actually IS a difference, besides the fact that piss won’t make you fat?
Useless internet argument?
..Better drink my own piss.
winner
So I guess the only beer you’ve had had “lite” somewhere in the name?
I guess the only beer you’ve had wasn’t belgian
piss instead of beer… i don’t see the problem
No piss? Better get a pepsi.
It’s okay if you’re Bear Grylls.
I think what you meant to say was “It’s like replacing beer with American beer”.
Ha ha. Burn.
American beer (craft beer) is some of the finest beer in the world. You must be thinking of the mass produced crap, which isn’t relegated to the United States. Ever drink Banks? Carib? Presidente? Heinekin? Corona? Filthy beers, not a one is American.
Oh, Bailey Jay is a he. A he with an expensive costume.
Never. Never ever. I’d rather drink Sierra Mist.
I think he meant the Penis like thing in her pants.
It’s not a penis like thing. It’s a penis.
No. If it’s attached to a creature like that – with such gender issues – then it’s a “Penis like thing.”
boy or girl it doesn’t matter. still gonna kcuf IT in the arse
(punch line from very old hitch-hiker joke)
It kinda looks like saggy underwear to me. Like they’re too big, but I don’t know.
Nah, never mind. He’s got his legs crossed like that trying to tuck everything, but it didn’t work very well…
*She
S/he? Curse our lack of a gender-neutral singular pronoun!
She identifies as a woman, so feminine pronouns are most appropriate.
As for gender-neutral pronouns, the singular “they” is acceptable in modern conversation. There are other pronoun sets, but none of them are universally understoof.
I don’t care is HE identifies as a Martian. HE is still a HE, and a Freak.
And you are the personification of one of the problems in the US today; the imposition of ones beliefs on others on the claim of religion. This ignore the fact that that type of talk while protected, is still offensive to society as a whole, and in direct contrast with the Bible that always seems to be quoted to go with it. Try readin the whole thing and not just the one or two phrases that your hate mongering preacher wants you to pay attention to.
Where did ThatGuy mention religion?
Alison – there is a 90% chance ThatGuy is trolling.
The fact that I need to tell you this is *facepalm*
I’m sure your right; it still does not make the person automatically get a pass. That anyone who says things just to be annoying is able to walk out their door with out getting a swift kick from at least twelve people is the thing that surprises me. Ran across one person talking about trolling some body one time; he ran when I claimed it was me and I took two steps in an aggressive way. They are the new school yard bully and should be treated as such; removed from the school yard with a fine.
it means you let him win
I wouldn’t be so sure. Transphobia is one of those things which is still acceptable in most circles, and particularly on here.
And you are an ignorant idiot. Religion has nothing to do with it. He is a He because HIS genetic makeup says so. I can stick a Ferrari badge on a Toyota, but its still a Toyota. Perception, preference, and desire do not shape reality, reality simply is regardless of what you want, perceive, or identify.
Genetics are not so simple. There are many people who do not fall simply into the he/she boxes. There are many types of intersex. People are born with ambiguous genitals all the time. Some are born with the set of genitals you would not expect genetically. The XX/XY dichotomy is simplistic and false.
Allow me to put it to you like this: is there anything wrong with transgender people?
If yes, GTFO. I hope you die in a fire.
If no, why do you feel they do not deserve your respect?
Congrats,
I get your point that genetics aren’t uber cut and dry (although I am surprised anyone actually brought that up). My point was that desire doesn’t = reality. My other point is the blanket coating to anyone that believes something different than Alison here is the “problem” with this country. To the roughly .1% of people born with that scenario (I think, maybe that’s an old statistic) there are likely some huge internal conflicts, I cannot imagine the psychological trauma it could cause.
Everyone deserves and equal chance at respect, and their personal decisions are there own, and deserve the right to make their decisions unhindered.
To your bottom-line question. Yes. I do find a problem. But it is more with how you “allowed” yourself to put it to me.
“GTFO I hope you die in a fire…”- is not a response to wish on any human being regardless of they’re standings. If you ever hope to change anything in this world… it will not be with comments like this, granted this site is memebase. Nor shall it be by calling everyone else that happens to disagree with your point of view the problem.
Quick summary, desire still doesn’t = reality, and as you stated (and I agree) reality can often be complicated, but simple desire doesn’t change reality. The idea that people rejecting people on a basis of beliefs, is the same as you telling them to die in a fire. It is another needless divide that burns bridges and further destroys society.
That is a very old statistic. More current, and corrected past statistics say that around 12% (+/-4%) identifies as LGBT over all, and that 3.3%, or 1:30, of males in the US fall on the Gender Identity Disorder spectrum as described by DSM-IV standards, and ICD-9 standards; those are the base reading for a person to be transgendered by the technical sense.
Also, I will add that I do not have problems with people who do not agree with me; I have problems with people who do so in such a way as that they present no backing for the reason that they came to this conclusion, do so in such a was that can be nothing more than inflammatory, and intentionally stated in such a way as to allude that they are the authority on the subject.
Ahh, Alison. I am gaining so much respect for you in this thread. Hit the nail on the head ^_^
too long didn’t read :3
@bored So your calling attention to the fact that you are ignorant on the subject and lazy? Where is this a good thing?
if yes, GTFO? If you want people to respect your opinions at all, you should probably respect theirs.
Transphobia does not deserve respect.
nor does not respecting others
Not all opinions are created equal. Some are wrong.
Your analogy of putting a Ferrari badge on a Toyota and yet it still being Toyota is invalid.
In your example automobiles which are built with clear intent of what they are to be (ie a Toyota or Ferrari) is in no way a direct parallel with how humans work. Consider the following before leap to conclusions…
Brain Sex
Anatomical Sex
Gender Identity
Hormonal Sex
Gender Identity
These aspects of ourselves are not always in sync. Gender identity actually isn’t as abstract as one might think. Our brain sex is a physical seat in which we view and orient ourselves with the world. Depending on the hormonal influences while in the womb, some brains remain in the default female state, and consequently carry matching female gender identity, just as in the case as cisgendered female would possess. Biologically speaking, at a brain level, transwomen ARE women.
Nextly, transitioning… in the case of transwomen this involves the suppression of testosterone with an anti-androgen and supplementing with estradiol. For those of you who don’t know, estradiol is the hormone of a fertile woman. Your hormones are chemical messengers that turn certain biological functions on or off – they tell your body what sex you are, without these chemical messengers your body simply would not have the physical dynamics it does. Hormone replacement therapy rewires a transwomans body to function as their true gender which is essentially a second puberty, a female puberty, this involves many changes some of which I list here…
Female breast development,
Thinning and softening of skin
Ocular changes (peripheral vision as opposed to more male focal vision)
Enhanced sensitivity to male pheremones
Redistribution of body fat (hips, thighs etc)
Sexually dimorphic brain changes
Brain changes to female proportions
Pheremone changes (girls smell different than boys and it is the same case here)
It doesn’t matter if a transwoman is pre-operative or not. The subject of chromosomes and sex actually don’t matter either… they are codes for TENDENCIES, not ABSOLUTES. People like to think XY chromosomes will lead to the a complete congruence between brain sex, anatomical sex, hormone sex etc on an absolute level… but that’s not the case. Some transwomen have androgen insensitivity despite their chromosomal features, and look indistinguishable from XX women. Some people aren’t even in the dichotomy of XX and XY, so it’s a moot argument.
Finally, the subject of this poster and more notably, sexual attraction. We’ve already discussed why it’s flawed to base your sex rationale based on genitals, so what about sexual attraction? Well, heterosexual men are attracted to femininity. Think soft skin, curves, nice hair, a pretty neotenous face, a girls pheremones… Straight men are attracted to these sexual cues on deep level. Whatever inane constructs you have been instilled with about transwomen due to Jerry Springer style theatrics (which by the way – ARE NOT REALITY) this crumbles under the weight of the simple natural fact that men desire femininity. Genitalia play a relatively small role in romantic attraction. When you see a beautiful woman walking down the street, you aren’t really paying direct attention to their genitals. It’s more of the what I call “big picture”. It’s an obvious rational fact I feel sad to say that alot of you who hatefully state transwomen should be called “its” are missing out on.
I hope you grow up, for everyone’s sake.
As an atheist i still hate those things
To what things are you referring? Trolls? Bigots? Bibles?
Try reading the whole thing again.
Genesis 18-19
God Destroys Sodom and Gomorrah being LGBT.
Genesis 19:23-25 to be axact
She is a she, and one of many people who identify as something other than their assigned gender. Her identity is recognised as a valid medical diagnosis, and her choices regarding that are approved by medical organisations around the world.
You, on the other hand, are a bigot parroting outdated notions of gender which are directly contradicted by reality.
BEN:
I get that you are defending the person in the poster, and I respect that. I do have a couple of questions though, meaning no disrespect.
If a cat walks by, and you cannot immediately tell whether it is male or female, what do you use? It? He? She? Why is it ok to refer to an animal to which you can’t assign a gender, It, but it is not okay for the above person? We cannot tell whether that person is female or male, anatomically. Humans are animals…
I notice you make a very clear distinction between gender and sex, which is fine. However, anatomically if a person has a penis, they are considered male. By a purely physical sense… So, why is it wrong to call someone with a penis, a male?
Finally, if having a penis or not is NOT a basis for how one identifies their gender, then why get a surgery at all? Why not just identify with female in a social & fashion sense? Say, as a cross-dresser? You have made such a point of “having a penis doesn’t make you a man,” but why does the removal of it, all of a sudden make you a woman? Just because you identify with that? I submit that it is not so much the desire or basic fundamental “how I see myself” thing, as much as it is to an objective outsider, a “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck…” kind of thing.
Of course, if someone is going through those issues and the surgeries and all that, I am all for whatever they want to be, don’t get me wrong. It is their choice and I respect that. However, this was just a joke. I just don’t see why, in this venue, of all places, you felt the need to rise to a hot defense. This is where we bullsh*t, and are making jokes.
In any case, I am only asking my questions to better understand, and I am not attacking or putting this viewpoint down.
Generally speaking, I would use “they”. I might use a gendered pronoun, based on my own interpretation of the gender of the cat (generally, I read cats as female) with the understanding that I do not know. Keep in mind that, in this instance, we do know the gender of the person we’re considering. Once this is known, it should be respected. Cats are also unable, generally, to communicate their gender identity to us.
Interestingly, though, I am the carer of a transgender canary – born female, lays eggs, but with all the behaviour of a typical male. We use masculine pronouns for him.
You are confusing me a little with your second and third paragraphs. You’ve acknowledged and accepted the distinction I made between gender and sex, but then you talk as though gender depends upon sex. This is confusing.
To answer your question, I would consider someone with a penis to be “anatomically male”. This is their sex. When we call someone a man, or use masculine pronouns, this is a comment on their gender.
Removal of the penis does not suddenly make someone a woman. By a genital-based definition of sex, it suddenly makes them female, and where I live would allow them to get their sex officially recognised as female.
That said, if someone wishes to be identified as female, and they have a penis, this should be respected. You don’t know if they plan to get surgery, or what the connection between their sex and their gender is. Doing so costs you nothing, and affords them the respect they deserve.
As for “why do it”, the connection between gender and sex varies, and is often complicated. I know women who were born male and do not wish to have SRS. That’s perfectly legitimate.
However, one might feel that their sex, as well as their gender, is incorrect. Modern medicine gives us the ability to correct this problem.
Also, yes, a lot of it comes down to how people see you. Our perception of ourselves is not divorced from others’ perceptions of us, nor are our experiences in life. The way others perceive us greatly affects how they act towards us, and how we internalise our own view of ourselves.
As for “it’s a joke”, yes, this is the Internet, and people joke. This joke (if indeed it was a joke. This attitude exists and is genuine) happens to be indicative of an attitude which impedes the ability of trans* people to live their lives as they wish with the respect they deserve. Joke or not, the comment was deeply offensive, both generally and personally. The Internet is used by real people with real lives who experience real discrimination.
oops… I fell asleep
Also due note there has been cases of humans being born with male genetalia, but having ovaries inside, and the same in reverse.
TL;DR
Ben you are a moron, this place is just for fun, why you have to take all so serious?
I take this so seriously because transphobia, which is present throughout this thread, is going to delay my transition by upwards of a year, just so I can retain a decent chance of having a career at the end of it, and thus of having a family. That may not sound like a big deal, but it’s a year of my life largely wasted on the wrong gender. That’s a big deal to me.
The “Internet is serious business” defence is a classic derailing technique. I don’t care that this place is intended for lulz – the people who come here are real people who really discriminate against other real people, and the comments I’ve replied to throughout were not funny in the least.
I agree with belle. Intolerance of transsexual/transgender people, and even transvestites, makes it very hard for us to get decent jobs, especially in the most prominent of careers, the service industry, where we will be judged by every customer.
I wish belle the best of luck in her transition and (corniness alert) hope for a better future of more tolerance.
What is wrong with “it”? Seems to describe this picture pretty well…
Because “it” is what you would use to describe a plant. While some plants do have sexes, they do not have brains nor emotions; thus an object, not a person.
“It” is used to describe an inanimate object. Using it to refer to another human being is incredibly offensive, particularly when that person is a member of a marginalised group.
he
You left out the ‘s’. Perhaps your keyboard is malfunctioning? You should look at getting a replacement. It’s starting to make you sound like an ignorant bigot who can’t read the comments before stating an unfounded and heavily debunked opinion.
I still don’t get it..what are we supposed to see when we look do…ohhhhh.
you can say what you want, but i’d f*** bailey jay any time any place!!
Oh yeah, me too. Total hotness
Sorry about what? for you posting picture of some fugly transsexual?
If you want to make demotivional like this then at least find picture of actually beautiful tranny… not your gay fantasy partner
transgender*
Random skank + Hello Kitty shirt + Distended Stomach =
Not hot anyways…
+ penis = i’d hit that
*Distended Stomach*
I do not think that word means what you think it means…
Inconceivable (and I’m disappointed it took 6 days for someone to say it)!
aw crap she’s missing an arm!!!
This guy is currently winning
That would be Bailey Jay, Internet Transsexual Slut Star.
The fact that I know that tells me I’ve been online too damn long.
Get help now!
I tried once.
They say, if the doctor keeps up his good behaviour, he can possibly be allowed visitors next year.
Barring another relapse, of course.
not a trans-sexual….the proper term for her/he/that…..is a transvestite..
until he/she/it undergoes gender reassignment….
then it is called ..trans gender
until then its a boy with bewbs…
so to recap penis = boy , vagoo = girl
I have been on the interwebs way to long
i still remeber when she was 17 at comicon and her little blond playmate…
crap now I need a shower…i feel dirty
LICD for the win.
If he/she identifies him/herself as the opposite sex, then it is a transexual. Transvestites are just people who dress and act as the opposite sex. I know, very confusing. But at least you didn’t call it a cross dresser.
Closer, but transvestites are actually usually heterosexual, they just get aroused from wearing the clothes of the opposite sex.
Still no cigar. Sexual orientation actually has nothing to do with it.
Transgender: Someone uncomfortable in their sex.
Transsexual: Someone who would only be comfortable in the body of the opposite sex.
Transvestite: Someone who gets aroused wearing clothes of people of the opposite sex.
Genderists: everything in between.
Seems my response was lost some where or too clinical. I’ll just say go to http://www.wpath.org For the proper information and make sure to read the “standard of care” that WPATH houses on that site as well.
Transvestites don’t necessarily get aroused by dressing in clothes intended for the “opposite” sex. Many do so merely because it’s how they like to dress, or it’s a product of their gender expression.
True. My apologies.
Not quite. Kathryn has it right- if the person identifies as the opposite gender, they’re transexual or transgendered (whichever term you prefer). If the person just likes to dress as the opposite gender, they’re a transvestite.
The whole gender thing can be summed up in:
XY=Male
XX=Female
holey carp! I’ve just ruined the hopes of those “gender-pretenders”
You do realise that repeating a lie often enough doesn’t actually make it true, right?
Says who, hypocrite.
Says the person who actually put some thought into their responses, rather than repeating the same conclusion over and over without any backing or refutation of criticism.
Also, questions end with question marks.
Did you ever think that stating the truth, doesn’t make it true?
See my other comments here for a rebuttal to the claim that sex and gender are binary, dependent, and both strictly and unambiguously genetically determined.
i dont give a fnck…
fapfapfapfapfapfapfap
Considering she looks gross anyway, that means little to me.
her penis is missing a finger
^THIS is appropriately posted.
Exactly what came to my mind.
Well said.
Holy S***! And I was JUST watching Club Villian too!
It’s not the best photo of her. She’s actually pretty damn hot.
*He’s
If the person identifies as a female, and using a female name would be a good place to start for that, then no; female pronouns would be correct. Even if you don’t agree with a person’s gender identity, it is still respectful; something that could be done more rather than just being spoken of in society.
Bailey Jay is about as unisex a name as you can get, so name does not play in here at all. We go by what the person identifies themselves as then?
By what you see themselves identifying as. I worked with a guy named Tracy once that could not be mistaken for female; I also worked with a Josh that was definitely a female. Plus, Bailey was a female name; Americans made it unisex.
It matters who made it unisex?
He/Him/His = XY
She/Her/ = XX
that is how it works
Example:
You know Bailey, he calls himself a girl.
^like so
To open this: I’m transgender, MTF. I’ve only recently discovered this. I’m not on hormones, I haven’t chosen a new name, and I have only a few items of women’s clothing.
So, the name I go by is still my given name, and quite clearly male, as is my appearance. My friends, at my request, refer to me in gender neutral terms – except for one, who knows that I identify as transgender and will sometimes refer to me as a woman to make me feel good.
So, to answer your question, yes. We go by what the person identifies as. No one else can claim to know our gender better than we do.
*high five*
*high fives back*
Thanks. It’s nice to see nice people on this thread ^_^
My profession is genetics, this is how i see it. XY= is he. you will never change that, you will always be a man, no matter how much you alter your body,
maybe you are just h0mosecks and don’t know the difference between g4y and girl? not psychologist so that i just a guess, but makes sense to me.
Your profession is genetics, yet you’ve never heard of any of the various forms of intersex? Wow. You must be good. Before you get too excited, I would suggest you steer clear of psychology, too.
I’ve tried sex with boys. It never worked for me. Whether I am gay, or a girl, I am, for certain, me. You are not. I am in a slightly better position to judge my gender identity and sexuality than some douchebag on memebase.
I think I <3 you for that – THANK YOU for that thought! Respect isn't that hard, people.
Plus, *squee*?
Well, thank you. If a person has ever been the brunt of someone’s hate based on anything that can not be changed about themselves, they see the world a bit differently. It also likely helps that I know quite a bit about this subject from having some close experience with it over my life.
Also I can’t stand the people that wander around talking about how they need respect from everyone while being the biggest a**hat to be found.
I’m honestly supprised that there are so many positive comments on this any more around here.
Alison and Miss B.: Thank you again for all your kind and supportive thoughts here. And yes, I too am pleasantly surprised that not every comment is based on hate or ignorance.
My personal opinion? Love is love; beauty is beauty. We need to get over this label-mania that leads many to separate themselves from many wonderful people, and leads many wonderful people to question their validity. *That* isn’t fair, and I hope by the time my kids are older, we’ll be past all that nonsense.
Alison, I know you may not see this so late in the thread, but based on a reply you made below, I looked for you on FB – “Alison Demzon”, in the cute hat with the kanji/kana name?
Yes, that is me. ^.^
Yup, that would be me.
Thank you. You are fantastic
Thanks; hate to be short, but see above. ^.^
I’m trans (new, obviously, for I still use my given name), and it’s really great to see people standing up for us. You are a wonderful person. One millions Internets for you, and a hug for being so great ^_^
Well thank you again ma’am. If you want an extra person to talk to I’m easy to find on Facebook; and yes, I am an odd goth girl and always have been.
You called me ma’am! *squeals*
Well, by all rights, you are. I have a post-op parent, so I kinda know what you’re going through, and the way I see it, you’re pretty much a woman, with some… changes to be made. Best of luck to you
Thanks! I hope to start making those changes soon. In fact…I’m going clothes shopping in an hour and a half.
Thank you for being a decent, respectful human being. And, since this is becoming a bit of a tradition for me, *hugs!*
Ah, in that case, I wish you the best of luck, milady! And have fun shopping – that can be so much fun!
Thanks! It was good fun. I got a few basic, nice things. Tonight, I’m going to try it all on and see how it looks ^_^
Sorry Ben, but you will always be XY so science will always see you as a dude, just a dude with mental “unbalances”, not meaning crazy, so sorry Mr. Ben
Reply to Billy Gene:
Where do you, who refuse to recognise the existence of millions of people around the world who transition, and refuse to even acknowledge the modern stance of medicine towards these people, get off talking about science?
Science is a philosophy which expands knowledge using the best available evidence, yet you cling to a preconceived notion that millions stand as evidence against.
If you are a scientist, I can promise you a long, dull, undistinguished career.
pssssst, your y chromosome is hanging out…
Pssssst, you need to learn something about the role of genetics in sexual development beyond what they told you in high school before you get to take part in these discussions.
Pssssst, Guy is correct, the Y set you as a male. that is why you are a male. I would know, My profession is in genetics.
Psst, you’re not really doing a good job of setting yourself up as an authority here if you don’t know about the various forms of intersex, the distinction between sex and gender, or the legal definition of sex which is reliant on anatomy rather than genetics.
I want to wish you good luck too
Thanks. You people are lovely, and get hugs! *hugs!*
Unless they tell every partner they have that they used to be the opposite sex, they don’t deserve respect. Crime against nature anyways; if you want to be gay, don’t lie to yourself and everyone else.
Has nothing to do with sexual orientation; this is gender identification. The quick explanation is try to think of if you woke one day in a body of the other sex while still having the same gender identity. That is every day for a transgender person. I do always wonder about the “crime aginst nature” thing as if it was there would have been a corrective system in place; oh wait there is, medical science, HRT, and surgical procedures to correct the error.
I take back my previous comment and applaud your work here.
Thank you for restoring some faith in (online) humanity.
Your welcome; Now if more stood up to those that are just out to cause problems there would be none in short order.
By your explanation they would be ok with it and just fap to themselves nonstop. if I were a chick that is what i would do. Still sounds like gay to me, but with psychological issues as well.
new topic! I am related to a gay man, even he says he wasn’t born that way, events in his life did that, same applies to “these People”
*slow clap*
So, you know one gay man who feels it was nurture, as opposed to nature. I have no reason to doubt that. Have you met everyone in the world who is not cisgendered and straight?
No? Then you have no basis for assuming what contributes to that.
First, Bailey Jay has not had bottom surgery. It’s pretty hard to get away with that, so by your definition, she deserves respect.
Second, it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. She has sex with men and women. Some trans women identify as lesbians, some as straight, some as (bi/pan/poly/omni)sexual.
It’s not lying. It’s recognising one’s true nature, and working to bring their body into agreement with that.
I just need to say that in addition to having nothing against any person i’ve ever met that is gay, lesbian, transgender, or anything of that sort, omnisexual is the most badass term i’ve heard this week.
Respect of GTFO.
*tits
or*
I’d tap that anyway. Penis or no penis.
agreed :3
I concur
I would still hit that
me too!
+1
Holes: 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.
I really don’t see the problem, I’d be all over that
^ all of these men are gay
true story
All of these men find at least one trans woman attractive.
True and accurate story.
I think i see hips (men dont have wide hips) and no pommel… IMO she just look bad and got stupid panties.
Trans women can get wider hips on hormone replacement therapy.
Erm….wider hips = bigger pelvis. This doesn’t magically grow with estrogen. Bewbs do though.
Also by a shift in fat distribution. After all, that would mean the phrase “big boned” when someone’s a size 20 would have to be true, and everyone knows that isn’t.
It affects fat distribution. You get more around your arse, which results in wider looking hips.
That IS a dude.
It’s a TRAP!!
Y U BOYZ NO WANT MY PENIS?
We miss Bee. Tell her to come back, plz
*him
Stop dressing your little brother up moms clothes.
Thays Dumont is so much hotter.
hmmmmm, I did a google images search for Thays Dumont, and every single link is to a .ce.ms website that tries to install a fake virus scanner.
I think you are either a troll or an idiot
Is the problem the bulging crotch or the pregnant belly?
Her face.
^ His face…and penis.
Her face.
His face
XY forever a dude
This troll is getting old.
Taking the Internet seriously is getting old.
Apparently having a midriff that isn’t flat as a pancake is “fat” or “pregnant”? Stay classy, dumbass.
Sexy
I only see a camel.
*most… FML its too early… *logging off*
meh Sarina Valentina is a waaaay hotter trap
You can have them both.
http://www.myshemalesex.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/sarina-valentina-bailey-jay-02.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ES3bw.gif
Me gusta Bailey Jay
Definitely a man, she’s not hot at all
All women must be hot by your estimation to be women?
His facial features still has male feature to it in Johnny’s observation.
There are still manly women and girly dudes, but they are still women and dudes, no changes to genetics.
its baley jay :c
bailey jay, as photographed by lindsey heath (who in a confusing twist, looks somewhat similar)
Hell id still hit it.
Works for me! *humps*
Fapfapfapfapfap… Hell yeah!
id still tap that…..
I like her even more because she can’t get pregnant and won’t PMS all over the city if I make her mayor.
Him
also still has p3nis
obviously he doesnt GAF. now GTFO or grow some balls. just because youre not comfortable with your sexuality doesn’t mean you have to bring everyone else down with you. although, she doesnt hit me as attractive, as a woman or a man :/
She is so hot!!!!
you mean He
Bailey Jay. I’m a fan.
Bayley Jay
One of the sweetest ladyboys around
Just a bad photo ‘ts all
ehm, I’d still… hit .. it?
meh
What’s that General Ackbar?
Bailey Jay is yum
She looks an awful lot like my friend’s girlfriend.
Please tell me they’re not monogamous.
He*
I cannot believe that you are still so steadfast in this opinion. I realise that consensus does not imply accuracy, but there seems to be a VERY large force united against you. For the sake of your own dignity, please quit now.
I’d still hit it.
………………………..*pokerface
damn, that’s a big clitoris!
…I’m okay with this!
Yay pansexuality~
High five?
High five! …even though I’m bisexual, not pansexual.
whatever it is, it’s FUGLY!
*Whoever she is, she’s FUGLY!
Dear sweet zombie Jesus, will you knock it off? I’ve scrolled down through these comments just looking at the names, and you and that Alison person seem to take up a good third of the posts by yourself.
Please take a moment and think honestly: Do you have nothing better to do than sit and White Knight on a thread, (on Memebase no less) for what appear to be hours. You do realize you aren’t likely at all to change ANYONE’S opinions, you’re making yourself out to be an annoying ass who must be politically correct 100% of the time, and you must impose your beliefs on other people like it’s providing you oxygen.
Find a hobby for the love of god, or at least something that will do some good.
Normally, I wouldn’t post this much, but there is a lot of transphobia in this post. Why should I let anyone get away with thinking it’s okay to refer to someone else as “it”?
Also, these arguments aren’t exactly difficult to combat or original. It doesn’t take long to correct people. Heck, I could probably write a script to do it for me.
i don’t care what IT is, i’d wreck it. then i’d make videos of me wrecking IT and send them to ben and alison.
I’m now making a plea to the good people at memebase.
To start with, this post was disrespectful. It sparked a lot of discussion, some of it quite positive, but a lot of it negative.
There has been a lot of explicit and implicit transphobia in here. This comment has now escalated the thread to threats of violence.
I suggest, if not a removal of this post, then a ban of the person who left the comment to which I’m replying. I implore you to take a stand against such hateful attitudes, and to avoid approving posts such as this in the future.
By wreck, he meant “have rigorous sexual intercourse with” he said IT, meaning he didn’t care the gender, Bailey doesn’t have one of those faces you just want to punch.
You’ve scrolled all the way down and counted her comments and then decided it was too much time? How long did it take you to do that?
You say it won’t change anyone’s opinion? Wrong! It changed mine. Okay, I wouldn’t be ready to date her, but by reading Ben’s (and others’) arguments, it opened up my mind.
I always figured it was a choice of theirs, just like I used to think it was for gays and lesbians. I now know it’s silly to think like that, but I haven’t come across enough trans* people to change my mind about them, yet.
I wouldn’t trade places with them for a million bucks. I can’t figure out how hard it must be to fight against people as ignorant and insensitive as you.
At least, before I understood them, I never insulted them. Shame on those who do.
Thank you for posting this. It’s good to know that there are people out there who are willing to listen, and learn. If all that was accomplished in this was that one person gained some respect for trans people, then it was well worth the time
XY + XY = homosecks
I believe it is morally wrong to lay with another man as if he were a woman. don’t hate gays, but don’t want to be one, transgender people should be polite enough to inform someone of the fact they were not born with their current gender appearance, in respect of the others opinions, it would only be common cutesy. if they practiced this I would have know problems. also, keep in mind people will joke about transgenders like they do gays and race.
^ is Alison trying to make a point, no one stick to their names here,
Billy Gene is used by 11 different trolls
Ok, not going to use Nya this time. Was stupid of me to use an allias anyways. I’m glad that you’ve come to admit that nothing you said can be taken seriously. Not that you had much to go on. Most of your argument was hanging to genetics. Even if you hadn’t claimed to be a troll it would have been dumb of a scientist to say that was concrete proof. Researchers at the National Genome Research Institute will even tell you genetic studies are still in their infancy (Just google search “do we know all there is to know about dna and look for the genome . gov link). All you’re doing is looking from an outside perspective and trying to tell us, the ones that are actually transgender, that what we’ve learned about ourselves and come to understand is false. Unfortunately we don’t have much proof either except the however many years we’ve lived our lives. Though in all honesty expierience over theory generally wins until more proof can be brought to counter the expirience. You’ve also mentioned that maybe we are gay but just can’t accept that. I tried to accept that and was willing to. Hell I tried to look at other guys from the ideal that maybe there would be something there. Never felt anything. Kind of strange for a gay guy not to have at least a little interest in other men in my opinion. Instead I’m happily engaged to a wonderful woman who accepts me for who I am and supports me. So you can cling to your theorys but I’ll stick to the expirience that has been my life over the last 26 years.
“Though in all honesty expierience over theory generally wins until more proof can be brought to counter the expirience.”
The experience of trans people is evidence, and as any good scientist (or anyone with an understanding of the philosophy of science) will tell you, a theory cannot stand contrary to evidence.
As for us simply being gay, I’m pansexual. I sleep with boys and girls, not to mention those who identify as neither.
Captain Jack salutes you… and invites you to dinner.
don’t you have to identify as one? how do you none? *honestly wondering*
I’m friends with several gay people, and while it is sometimes true that it’s not a choice, sometimes it actually is. not that there’s anything wrong with that.
B*tch has a penis♫♪
Whos Got a Penis? ♫♪
bailey jay, best tranny.
@Aerin: It seems that thread got too many posts deep. Yes, that is me. I’m a jeweler by trade and made the wings on that hat and the thingy on the side that you can’t see to well in the picture.
People in the past have hoped for the same; a world of true piece where no one is seen as less than anyone else, and with out subjugation to achieve it. The first one in recorded history got nailed to a bit of wood; and people have not stopped talking about it since. The more recent ones were shot by people who had a problem with the idea of being nice to others; they spawned in to the modern-day Internet troll, Mormans, and one perticular family that is presently runjing all over the US daring anyone to stomp thier teeth in. (The ones that have teeth in the group that is.) The point is, it is a great goal, and something that we should all hope for; but I honestly don’t see it happening in my life time. For now, we can all just work to move in that direction, and when the time comes, pass on the marathon of one world as one world to the next generation.
IT’S A TRAP!
Challenge Accepted.
Bisexuals never lose huh
Damn straight
There are white knights in MEMEBASE♫♪
There are white knights in MEMEBASE♫♪
There are white knights in MEMEBASE♫♪
WE DON’T WANT WHITE KNIGHTS ON MEMEBASE♫♪
The boner wants what the boner wants.
i’d tap that
TRANNY EW BLEEEEEECK.
Just be the gender you were born for God’s sake!
She is “being” the gender she was born. Being born male does not mean one is born a woman. The two are not equivalent, and the very existence of transgender people is evidence of that.
they just like to be different. Cant accually say, but HE isn’t being HIS born gender fully. HE still needs to go as HE to be being his gender.
Fun Fact: Muhammad Ali never won a single title fight. But Cassius Clay won multiple.
You’re such a lovely person Billy, I wish more people could be like you.
People do have a choice you know, if she wants to be female, why the hell not? She’s not hurting you by doing so, or actually having any negative impact upon your life. So really, what do you have to be offended by?
Case point: men and women have different ratios of chemicals in their brain. Somtimes, people have ratios more similiar to the opposite sex, and in some cases, a perfect example.
Compleeeeetely unrelated, people with oppositely wired chemical ratios have an incredibly high correlation to people who become transgenders.
No-one has considered that the bulge might be a mass quantity of pubic hair?
Female pubic hair, that is ^_^
….Ah yeah, Bailey Jay. Ignore previous posts ^_^
girl or boy still cute
i used to work with her, that’s a girl
Well, this comment thread quickly turned into a debate. Progress! Shows that the internet isn’t only full of trolls.
Your correct, there are also N3wF4gs
For future reference, can there please be a distinction between the “haters” and those who simply aren’t attracted to transgenders? Getting on people for what they’re attracted to seems just as narrow minded as for getting on someone for what gender they’re associated as.
Agreed. People can’t be judged for their sexual preferences, and they can be just as complex as one’s gender. My partner was not attracted to me after I decided to transition. She was simply not attracted to transfemininity. She is the perfect ally, that’s just not her.
Luckily for me, she discovered that she is still attracted to me. It’s an adjustment, of course, but we’re getting by pretty well.
just lost way too much time reading the comments. it made me lol… LOL
I agree with what Ben has said, and as the creator of the “Scale O’ Gayness” (and a 3 thereon), let me just say…
Bailey Jay is frikkin’ HOT. I don’t care WHAT you haters have to say.
Death to social injustice!
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Fapping to this? This chick is hardly attractive. I’d sooner clop to David Bowie.
still… me gusta bailey jay, me muy gusta
Who is the girl?
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